In possibly the highest profile example of mansplaining to date, director James Cameron (Titanic, Avatar, Terminator) has fired shots at the overwhelmingly successful Wonder Woman.
Despite massive critical acclaim, vastly positive audience reactions and inspiring social impact, Cameron has decided that Wonder Woman wasn’t portrayed correctly. In a recent interview with The Guardian, Cameron had a mini temper tantrum about Hollywood’s celebration over DC’s smash hit, calling it “misguided” and stating that Gal Gadot’s titular Amazon princess was “objectified”.
All of the self-congratulatory back-patting Hollywood’s been doing over Wonder Woman has been so misguided. She’s an objectified icon, and it’s just male Hollywood doing the same old thing! I’m not saying I didn’t like the movie but, to me, it’s a step backwards.
Sarah Connor was not a beauty icon. She was strong, she was troubled, she was a terrible mother, and she earned the respect of the audience through pure grit. And to me, [the benefit of characters like Sarah] is so obvious. I mean, half the audience is female!
When asked why he thinks that movies are still failing when it comes to portraying truly powerful women, Cameron was apparently at a loss for words. Except to gripe about how everybody wasn’t just following his lead:
I don’t – I don’t know. There are many women in power in Hollywood and they do get to guide and shape what films get made. I think – no, I can’t account for it. Because how many times do I have to demonstrate the same thing over again? I feel like I’m shouting in a wind tunnel!
Personally, I’m not sure where Cameron was trying to go with his statement, because “male Hollywood” had almost nothing to do with Wonder Woman. Is he saying powerful women can’t be conventionally sexy as well? Are powerful women only successful when they’re troubled, or tough, or unconventionally attractive?
That’s the line of thought that Wonder Woman director Patty Jenkins went down when she fired back at Cameron in a tweet on Friday. Stating that “if women have to always be hard, tough and troubled to be strong, we aren’t free to be multidimensional or celebrate an icon of women everywhere because she’s attractive and loving, then we haven’t come very far have we”, Jenkins said, calling Cameron out about his own misguided statements.
— Patty Jenkins (@PattyJenks) August 25, 2017
Jenkins has nailed the issue rather succinctly in her tweet. Cameron’s narrowly defined vision of what a “strong female character” should be is the real step backwards here. Just because his female characters are gritty and troubled and not very likely to be runway models doesn’t mean that that’s the only way for women to be represented on screen.
What galls me the most is Cameron’s suggestion that Wonder Woman’s massive success is thanks to male Hollywood doing the same old thing. It’s appallingly sexist and completely undercuts the huge leaps and bounds that Jenkins and co. have made.
Sorry Cameron, you just don’t have the monopoly on strong female characters anymore – not that anyone thinks you had it to start with.
Alien Emperor Trevor
He’s been talking about all kinds of things lately, sounding like someone’s grand dad, and generally making me react like this:
https://media.giphy.com/media/zjQrmdlR9ZCM/giphy.gif
RinceThis
yeah but you look that way when you try and order food…
Allykhat
He just needs to drop the other Avatar movies then retire, haha
Original Heretic
In the gif above, looks like Marky Mark is about to drop something else….
Allykhat
A sick beat?
RinceThis
snap! haha
Allykhat
I wonder if his knees are weak? Maybe he has sweaty palms? How was his moms spaghetti?
Original Heretic
Is that what the kids are calling it these days?
RinceThis
The bass?
Original Heretic
As far as I’m aware, no fish were harmed in the making of that terrible movie. Only human minds were hurt, having to sit through it.
Sit through the movie, I mean, not sit through a fish.
For the Emperor!
That would be the next Transformers movie?
Admiral Chief
http://www.neesvigs.co/wp-content/uploads/137683-Pork-Loin-Rib-Chop-Long-Bone-Duroc-Frenched-1410-All-Truebridge-v4.jpg
Skittle
I haven’t seen WW yet so I can’t agree or disagree with him but he is entitled to his opinion. Just because a man gives his opinion and you disagree with him doesn’t mean he is ‘mansplaining’.
Tracy Benson
According to Merriam-Webster:
Mansplaining is, at its core, a very specific thing. It’s what occurs when a man talks condescendingly to someone (especially a woman) about something he has incomplete knowledge of, with the mistaken assumption that he knows more about it than the person he’s talking to does.
Cameron’s comments are the literal definition of mansplaining. He’s attributing the success of Wonder Woman to “male Hollywood” – which is factually incorrect. “She’s objectified” – no, she’s not.
Basically, he, as a man, decided to say that he knows better about how strong female characters should be. As opposed to, you know, the woman that directed the most successful superhero origin movie of all time.
Allykhat
That’s not mansplaining though? That’s just being a condescending, know-it-all jackass.
All that’s happening now is we are calling a spade a shovel.
Is that really necessary?
Frik van der Hewerskink
It kind of sounds like when two people of different races fight each other. Is it racist ? sure it could be, but not always no. Sometimes it’s just two idiots fighting.
Admiral Chief
“Sometimes it’s just two idiots fighting”
^^^^^^THIS^^^^^^
Allykhat
You just explained some of the biggest issues in modern culture in 6 words. Though the number of which is debatable, the message is ultimately the same.
Bravo to you. Have my upvote, sir.
Quentin Huggett
The very term mainsplaining is as sexiest a thing as ever invented. You are lumping a certain kind of speech and assigning it to a specific gender. That is the VERY definition of sexism. “Basically, he, as a man, decided to say that he knows better about how strong female characters should be” No he is a human being stating his opinion as wrong as it may be. What you are doing is dismissing his opinion that you don’t like by assigning a false narrative to it. You are entitled to your opinion on this. But you trying to claim the moral high ground here is just silly. But what do i know, i am just mansplaining here…
Magoo
I think you misunderstand. The fact that he is male does have relevance because her argument is that the film is a provocation from and for women. Not that I agree with her.
Quentin Huggett
I don’t misunderstand at all i am taking specifically to the use of the sexist term mainsplaining, not to the content of James’s opinion.
Magoo
The content of his opinion is relevant.
Spathi
According to Stacy, it is not as relevant, no matter what Cameron said, because of his gender. That is what is Quentin is questioning.
Quentin Huggett
The content is only relevant in the fact that he is talking about another gender. Regardless of the content even if its the most sexist thing ever said, it does not excuse the use of sexism as a reply.
BakedBagel
“the most successful superhero origin movie of all time.”
Debatable. Spiderman (2002) is still a thing fam.
RinceThis
I think Tracy is talking about $$ made. For eg Iron Man still has a higher fresh score than WW.
BakedBagel
https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/e5606a511b55559bb186ba83c5adba48831e08cef04fde91aab67b5bbf3626c9.jpg
I would love to see the totals adjusted for inflation.
RinceThis
Spiderman has been out for 15 years… WW has been out for 2 months and is still bringing money in. But yes, would be interesting to check back in 15 years to see.
BakedBagel
The box office is the cinema tho XD
Edit: To google i go 😀
RinceThis
I believe it is still screening? Pretty sure I read that somewhere. I suppose one also has to take into account when spider-man came out there were not many superhero movies. So the fact that WW did so well ein a time of near saturation is worth noting.
BakedBagel
I tried to do some reading on how those totals are calculated but i didnt find an answer. You right though, 2002 Hollywood was still trying to understand how comic’s could make them money. Spiderman was one of the first major hits.
I_am_Duffman!
True. But Wonder Woman came out in Expensive 3d and Imax cinemas. Hefty premium you pay to wear those glasses.
RinceThis
I’ve read articles where people say that releasing only in IMAX and 3D doesn’t bring in as much money as just a normal cinema as many cannot afford to go or do not like 3D. But yes, I note your inflation comment. I should have said we can see when it’s completely off the circuit as it’s still on at some cinemas. That said, I doubt it will bring in another 21 mil! In this case though, Tracy is still 100% correct, cus WW is way frigging better than the Toby Spider-Man movie! HAHA!
Alien Emperor Trevor
I think Tracy’s a bit more than 0% correct, wow.
RinceThis
FFFFF!
I_am_Duffman!
Never. #TobeyIsMySpidermanAndSpiderman3DoesNotCount
Interesting comment about the 3d thing. We actually prefer 2d movies, not only because of the price, but 3d feels just way to dark most of the times. Plus, the moment my wife wants to lean to my side and tilt her head, everything just blurs. So i can sort of understand if that argument
RinceThis
Haha. Funnily enough I didn’t think the 3D in WW worked very because much of it is in the dark. On the island it was awesome though. Then again I was in a shitty screening cinema… Also… SPIDER-MAN 3! *RUNS
Original Heretic
Spiderman 3 also gave me the runs.
Matthew Holliday
The 3D was distinctly average.
Although I think had I seen it in IMAX 3D, Id have a very different opinion of it.
I dunno what black magic they do with IMAX, but its magnificent.
For the Emperor!
Very few movies, if any, are truly worth the 3D experience, as most are made 3D in post production. I truly despise that so many movies come only in 3D in the first few weeks these days 🙁
RinceThis
Yes. Me too. For example @disqus_DoEH3TsffU:disqus gets headaches watching 3D. Forcing that only choice to make more money is really not cool.
I_am_Duffman!
Thats not how inflation works.. You don’t have to come back after 15 years..
The picture only shows domestic, since all countries don’t have the same inflation rate. But If you use the same rate (which I don’t feel is fair), Spidey should sit at R1,257,313,084.60.
https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/6a4b07c98db431d2b8ba070c42b5f2773396c375390a3a6759507f0e8f6b58f3.jpg
Skittle
Mansplaining came about as a term to discredit a mans opinion without having to debate the issue. It’s a petty argument.
Matthew Holliday
“Basically, he, as a man, decided to say that he knows better about how strong female characters should be.”
So do you, as a woman, or Jenkins for that matter, have a “more complete understanding” of the portrayal of women in film than Cameron? Because youre female?
The topics content is only 50% about females, the other 50% is about film.
Being a female gives you an advantage on the topic, but the question on who knows more about film is still up in the air.
So who really has a “more incomplete knowledge” of it?
So thats it? Men arent even allowed to have professional opinions now?
A film maker having an opinion on films portrayal of women, but having his opinion dismissed as “mansplaining” because he is male?
Sure, opinions can be wrong, and his probably is, at the very least its egotistical.
But thats not even what the discussion is about anymore.
By Merriams logic, I cant even tell my sister how to tie her shoes.
Allykhat
Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, even if those opinions are wrong.
Even expressing an opinion now is considered mansplaining tho…? Oy vey…
Matthew Holliday
“Though he is a great film maker, he is not a woman”
Pretty much explains it.
RinceThis
What an idiot.
Original Heretic
My initial reaction to reading what Cameron had to say about WW was, “he’s bashing it because it’s not what he would have done and he’s saying that his characters are better.”
The mere fact that he used a character he created as an example of what a “strong woman” should be indicates narrow-minded and extremely egotistical thinking.
Geoffrey Tim
https://twitter.com/WobblyOnion/status/902128568515403776
RinceThis
Go away…
Allykhat
No… he’s funny…
Edit: We need all the senses of humor we can get these days…
RinceThis
Yes, we do! Not all seem to have one!
Quentin Huggett
You just used the term “mansplaining” your credibility is gone. Thanks for promoting gender stereo types that you think you are fighting with this article. As for James, his opinion seems very stupid to me, but he is entitled to it.
I_am_Duffman!
I immediately knew Tracy wrote this article just by reading the headline. Without even finishing the first sentence, it was confirmed.
I don’t want to take sides, but I just always find that it is so easy to put somebody on the spot during an interview and force them into giving an answer they might not have even though about before. With no background information on this interview, I can only assume that the intention of the interview was not to discuss WW. He obviously did not think his answer through and now he gets grilled for giving an answer with some questionable points.
I am not defending Cameron, I am just saying that it is really unfair to jump on bandwagons like this.
EyeGodZA
Oh boo. Poor bros a little butthurt? Cameron has a responsibility, and even though he’s one of my favourite directors and one of the best filmmakers to ever walk the earth, it was foolish of him to make these statements. He’s FAR smarter than this. As for promoting gender stereotypes… Did you read this post, and your own response? Circular reasoning much?
Quentin Huggett
Pulls out the buthurt card( an Ad hominem attack) about my buthurtness criticizing the authors sexism, even though the entire article is about the authors buthurtness and then accuses me of circular reason… hahahaha. Have another go man. I’ll wait.
EyeGodZA
Okay, let’s take this from the top. How was the author’s article sexist? And how does the term mansplaining devoid her of credibility? Furthermore, and ad hominem attack would be me saying you’re a cunt, which I didn’t. I just said you’re oversensitive, which – given your emotional response to the article – doesn’t seem far from the truth at all. That seems like a pretty fair, objective assessment, wouldn’t you say? Also, how is the author butthurt? Is Patty Jenkins – by the same token – butthurt too?
The author raises some important issues about Cameron’s statements on WW and how irresponsible and offensive they may be interpreted as; instead of engaging with these, you respond with your own vitriol that borders on the very ad hominem attack you accuse me of. Did you just learn what ad hominem means today? Because mixing a couple of smart terms into a dumb argument doesn’t make the argument valid or relevant. Yes indeed; round and round we go, pal.
Quentin Huggett
“Furthermore, and ad hominem attack would be me saying you’re a cunt, which I didn’t. I just said you’re oversensitive, which – given your emotional response to the article – doesn’t seem far from the truth at all.” No actually any from of attacking a person is ad hominem. And then you did it again by assigning what you believe my feelings to be on the matter, when I have not in anyway expressed my feelings. So you trying to claim i am over emotional to dismiss my opinion and then do it again to try and dismiss my correct use of ad hominem, both which reflects on you only. The author is buthurt in exactly the same way you claimed i was buthurt, which is to say not at all, but you made the statement i just made the equivalence to point out your erroneous statement. My point is and only is on the use of the term mansplaining which is as sexist as it comes as i have pointed out bellow. Yet you failed to read what i wrote, made assumptions about my emotions and my actual point. Buthurt, overly emotional… mmmm i wonder which one of us that describes.
EyeGodZA
Wait, hang on. Where did I attack you? Where did I “assign what I believed to be your feelings on the matter”, whatever that means? As a matter of fact, I think you very clearly expressed your feelings on the matter in the OP; you dismissed an article by a woman because you were offended by a word she used and insinuated that she promotes gender stereotypes; I made an observation about what I perceived to be an emotional overreaction, and put this observation to you as a question, not statement or fact. So, please clarify.
Furthermore, is your inference that the author has no credibility on account of using the word “mansplaining” – which is recognised by the Merriam-Webster dictionary (https://www.merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/mansplaining-definition-history) – not an ad hominem in and of itself?
I don’t think I failed to read what you wrote or that I made any assumptions about your emotions or your point. From my reading your point is that everyone is entitled to an opinion however stupid or offensive it might be. I wholly disagree. Because Charlottesville. And Nazis. And Hitler.
Quentin Huggett
“you dismissed an article by a woman because you were offended by a word she used and insinuated that she promotes gender stereotypes” No i dismissed a person using a term that is sexist.
” made an observation about what I perceived to be an emotional overreaction, and put this observation to you as a question, not statement or fact. So, please clarify.” —- “perceived to be an emotional overreaction, and put this observation to you as a question ” You clarified that yourself, if you trying to act dumb on the mater go right ahead, not going to wash with me.
“Furthermore, is your inference that the author has no credibility on account of using the word “mansplaining” – which is recognised by the Merriam-Webster dictionary (https://www.merriam-webster… – not an ad hominem in and of itself?” I really dont care if its in the bible. The sexism of the term is in the term itself “mansplaining” it doesn’t say personplaining, it says mansplaining.
“I don’t think I failed to read what you wrote or that I made any assumptions about your emotions or your point.” Again you did make assumptions about my emotion, so either you being intentionally obtuse or you are lying.
“From my reading your point is that everyone is entitled to an opinion however stupid or offensive it might be. I wholly disagree. Because Charlottesville. And Nazis. And Hitler.” Damn straight, the right to express an opinion is vital for ALL of us. Otherwise you get Stalin and gulags and Hitler and Nazi’s and 40+ million dead . Even Nazi’s deserve the right to free speech.Their opinions are easy to defeat. I am not surprised you disagree wholly, you seem to be a SJW.
But having said all that if you want to discuss the pro’s and cons of free speech and you have an actual point i am totally willing to listen and talk about it. But if all you going to do is try and prop yourself up on your SJW high horse and use terms like mansplaining, triggger warnings and safe spaces then we are probably not going to have a good discussion and i will give it a skip.
EyeGodZA
HAHA! Okay, let’s try this, and I paraphrase:
“You just [said] “Even Nazi’s deserve the right to free speech.” your credibility is gone. Thanks for [bringing into question the right to free speech] that you think you are [promoting] with this [statement]. As for [you], [your] opinion seems very stupid to me, but [you are] entitled to it.”
Quentin Huggett
There we go a the childish response to a serious issue, as i expected.
Your fragrant disregard of free speech in your indication that you think somehow it was free speech that caused the issues in Charlottesville and created Hitler and the Nazi’s, hints that you have very little understanding of why it is so important.
I will indulge you one go, read this http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2017/08/19/why-even-nazis-deserve-free-speech-215508
And then come back and we can talk. Maybe go and read animal farm, by George Orwell too. What you are promoting by trying to stop free speech is exactly the same as what the pigs did, where in the end the sign reads “All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others”
Come back with something real to discuss, not childish games, or i will just leave it here..
EyeGodZA
Wait, what?
Did you just go full ad hominem on my ass? Sweet Jesus, son. The irony.
I was using your poor logic to illustrate a point, one that you COMPLETELY missed.
Why am I even surprised? This is after all coming from a guy who believes I have “fragrant disregard”. Hilarious.
Maybe you’re right, though; I most definitely have an aversion to opinions that stink.
For the Emperor!
James Cameron went quite a bit off the reservation here, completely agree. Where did this come from? Why did he touch on this subject in the first place? Patty Jenkins is mostly correct in her response, agreed there. Though I would have preferred she said “audience” and not “female audience”. Also, is it not sexist that she implies men are not able to understand the significance of WW?
I loved the movie. Wonder Woman is a great character. Women, men and everything in between love her the world over (I do hate how people gloss over the fact that she is admired by many men as well). Some because of her beauty, some because of her story and character. Some because of the whole package. But just like male characters/heroes differ (Neo, Batman, Superman, Punisher, Deadpool, Iron Man etc), so do the female characters differ (Wonder Woman, Sarah Connor, Ripley, Hawk Girl, Black Canary, Batwoman), and trying to say every female must be Sarah or Ripley is short sighted to say the least.
Magoo
That’ll teach you for having an opinion.
BakedBagel
James Cameron obviously doesnt know what he is talking about. Obviously. I mean who is he?
What a pathetic article. Lmfao
LegionZA
Opinions are like assholes, everyone has one.
Geoffrey Tim
Hi!
It seems a bunch of you are upset about the term “mansplaining.” I get that. I get that it’s a potentially (and often!) reductive, sexist term that’s laced with hypocricy and double standards. I agree with many who feel that it’s dismissive and that as its a gendered term that usually comes about when people are trying to discuss gender equality, it often does more harm than good.
You could argue, probably rightfully, that it’s an ad hominem and that it’s laregly used solely to silence people. That said, this went through two *male* editors, and we found it perfect for this situation.
Here you have a dude who is in his own right, very successful and one hell of a filmmaker – who shot down Wonder Woman’s representation of strong women – by saying he’s done it better all along, when really, he hasn’t.
Original Heretic
People get offended by words way too easily these days…
Alien Emperor Trevor
For the Emperor!
Wait, they are in season 3 already? Nooooo I am too far behind! Android is the best part of the series for me!
Alien Emperor Trevor
Season 3 finished this last Friday!
RinceThis
It just finished, so awesome!
Original Heretic
Yeah I don’t watch this, so I don’t get this reference.
Spathi
I don’t believe people are getting “upset” about the term “mansplaining”, but the hypocrisy behind this specific writer using a sexist term, all whilst advocating for equal rights for women. It affects how I will look at all her articles in future.
For the Emperor!
I think (in my opinion) it is more because of the “hypocrisy and double standards” that it is considered OK (and fighting for equality) to use the “offensive” words when you “offend” one specific demographic (based on race/gender/sexuality), but it is considered “evil” to use “offensive” words to “offend” another demographic (based on an “opposite” race/gender/sexuality). Also, trying to “justify” it by saying “two males approved it”, does not address the concerns on double standards.
Unfortunately (also just my opinion) this site has been falling more and more into this way of writing (not necessarily thinking, as we all know words sometimes do not convey feelings/thinking properly). There is a clear (also my opinion) narrative being pushed in the world media as a whole, of a “them vs us”, where the “them” and “us” change on a daily basis depending on the “hot topic”.
This will probably offend many, but events like the Holocaust, Appartheid, Genocides in Africa and many other atrocities in our world history, all had a narrative of “them vs us” being pushed without being reigned in. If we refuse to learn from history, we are doomed to repeat it.
**Also, the more a “side” is bashed, the more people on that “side” will go on the defensive, no matter how wrong their views might be.
Matthew Holliday
” “them” and “us” change on a daily basis depending on the “hot topic”.”
100%
Geoffrey Tim
Yeah, I agree with this. It’s tiresome.
konfab
According to Tracy’s helpful definition:
“Mansplaining is, at its core, a very specific thing. It’s what occurs when a man talks condescendingly to someone (especially a woman) about something he has incomplete knowledge of, with the mistaken assumption that he knows more about it than the person he’s talking to does.”
Funny how that doesn’t apply when every SJW on the planet lost their marbles when the guy who has a masters degree in biology writes a scientifically valid memo on the psychological and biological differences between men and women, and how it can partially explain the discrepancy between the amount of men and women in STEM.
So if you want to go down this road, every conversation and opinion you want to make will be weighted on the knowledge you know, which means that discourse ends up being a dick size measuring competition. Which is exactly what this article is doing when you are comparing James Cameron’s ability as a director. This is not a nice way to have dialogue as nothing actually happens.
The alternative is what we call the socratic method, where you don’t assume to know anything and let the validity of the arguments speak for themselves. To quote Socrates:
“the only true wisdom is knowing that you know nothing”.
Taking a sincere look at someone else’s opinion with an open mind is challenging and will often make you really angry. However that seems to be getting difficult for the fragile minds that modern universities nowadays produce, so it is back to dick measuring and ad-hominem.
Even though Patty is the director, she doesn’t possess a monopoly of truth of what Wonder Woman is, or is meant to be. Nor does she speak for all woman, all around the world. I highly doubt she knows what wonder woman means for a goat herder in rural Yemen.
Gavin Mannion
I too disagree with the word mansplaining in this context but one word doesn’t change an article or a person so some people need to just calm down a bit.
Personally I partially agree with Mr Cameron here. If a male had directed this movie I would guarantee some people would have been upset at the sexualisation of her outfit. You literally cannot please everyone in this world no matter what you try and do.
In the end the difference of opinions and the freedom to state them is what makes this world great. Both the far left and far right are as pathetic and snowflaky as each other.